Ecdy and Liposomal Encapsulation

[BrainSquirt]

...I'm also curious why you may suggest lowering the water ratio in the recipe? ...

Both these were just questions off the top of my head … This one maybe because my own ‘original vision’ of anything ‘liposomal’ with ECDY involved lowest possible ratios of solvents (water, in this case ) to the ECDY… Basically, I think I would prefer to end up with more extra phospholipids extant in the product than having extra ECDY floating around. But, then again, you may have nailed your recipe where a consistent product is concerned.

and re:

...I went with sunflower lecithin over Polysorbate only due to thinking it was more natural and therefore better, but I readily admit I have no reason to think that sunflower lecithin would be an equal/better carrier than Polysorbate in this case. Is there a reason you would suggest Polysorbate specifically? ...

I hear dat. Health first... still, any questions about non phosphatidylcholine emulse are related to my concerns in posts up at the top of the thread about inhancing delivery precision.

Liposomes are biphasic, a feature that renders them the ability to act as carriers for both lipophilic and hydrophilic drugs. It has been observed that drug molecules are located differently in the liposomal environment and depending upon their solubility and partitioning characteristics, they exhibit different entrapment and release properties [15, 16]. Lipophilic drugs are generally entrapped almost completely in the lipid bilayers of liposomes and since they are poorly water soluble, problems like loss of an entrapped drug on storage are rarely encountered. Hydrophilic drugs may either be entrapped inside the aqueous cores of liposomes or be located in the external water phase. Noteworthy is that the encapsulation percentage of hydrophilic drugs by liposomes depends on the bilayer composition and preparation procedure of the liposomes [17, 18].

[::: Italics mine… and btw the rest of that article is a pretty good discussion of the types of liposomes]
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3065812/

ie the recipe for liposomal Vit C may be good/acceptable for ECDY, but I just can’t imagine it being optimal for ECDY.
I’m not sure ‘they’ even know how the agents in a liposome are actually released yet. Processed in the liver as fats and released? Or cells, hungry for phospholipid materials, tear off a part of the ‘sphere’ which releases the contents? Or both ? https://www.livonlabs.com/cgi-bin/start. ... ation.html
What do ya’ll think? Do you ‘believe’ liposomals are primarily broken open to release their payload in the liver or that processes all over the body break them open for their phospholipids? Or both/either, depending on the 'hardiness' of the 'sphere'?
Follow up questions ----with ECDY, are we looking for ‘stronger’ or ‘weaker’ (like polysorbates ??) liposomals where payload could be released near/in cells?
…From here, my mind quickly turns to double bags, integrins, and intercellular tensegrity … and ya’ll are probably wishing curious george would just shut the fk up...View more Emoticons

Have a great weekend all

[RobRegish]

LOTS of good info here, I'm so proud...

Forgot this facet of MPS: I'm of the opinion that PeakATP adds a LOT to getting RCE into circulation and ultimately, the muscle cell.

Just part of the reason, Synthagen is considered by some "The New Zebutol.."

[aron7awol]

Sorry for the delay in replying here...

I have been taking the liposomal ecdy for a few days again and have resumed working out. I'm feeling great, and definitely feeling a nice muscle pump effect and slimming effect, but it's just so difficult to ascertain what effect is occuring above and beyond.

In any case, I agree that nobody really knows how liposomes are released. However, as long as the liposomes aren't so resilient that they never get broken open and are excreted in urine/feces, I suppose "it's all gravy".

Any of the following possibilities are positives in my mind:
1. The liposomes prevent degradation by gut flora, allowing more to make it to the bloodstream
2. The liposomes prevent elimination/degradation during the first pass through the liver
3. The liposomes prevent elimination/degradation while in the bloodstream, and are released during liposomal incorporation with a cell membrane

I am still very curious about just how soluble ecdy is in water (I can't seem to find much info on this) and if it's possibly amphipathic?

FWIW, I used the liposomal Vit-C recipe only for the ratio of lecithin to water, figuring that would be the most important ratio, and if they have nailed down that ratio to not have extra water or lecithin, there would be no reason for me to change that. I did not assume, however, that Vit-C and Ecdy are equally soluble in water, and used significantly less (half as much) Ecdy than Vit-C in my recipe just in case. I am certainly getting a very nicely homogenous mixture after the ultrasonic treatment.

Again, all of the responses are very much appreciated...

[BrainSquirt]

Thanks aron7

re: "solubility"
“…Ecdysteroids are polar steroids, almost sugar-like in their solubility properties. …”
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16599407
but / and
evidently they have’ fatty acid’ aspects
https://books.google.com/books?id=lv-QOd ... in&f=false
ie water may be the most available (and healthy) solvent but by no means is it the best solvent for Ecdysteroids

I’m on a spring cleanse / alternate cruise right now and am off all the ‘good stuff’, but when I resume I’m going to run a recipe much like yours - with the addition of DHA at ~6?:1 ratio of water to lipid.

… what’s inside a liposome changes the reactivity of its outer surface, etc…
Not sure yet if I’ll combine / make it all in one batch or run separate batches and take proportional doses of each. ? And, if combined, not sure when in the process I will combine them. ? Any guidance?

Also been wondering what one could do to make cells / the body hungry for phosphalids.

Gotta scoot… have a great weekend all.

[aron7awol]

Since my last post I did a full week liposomal followed by a full week non-liposomal. I'm definitely feeling like I'm noticing a difference. My liposomal weeks I've had a distinct additional muscle fullness. I am currently preparing another batch of liposomal.

Now I need to decide if I should do 2 weeks in a row of the same dose of liposomal to see what I experience, or perhaps I will double the dose and observe...