Zebutol, Anabolica, ZOE Ecdy, Oh My..
I'm all for using the real deal (plant) material. However, not knowing that much about the plant I would think you have to consider the effects of demand. If a plant can only grow in a specific location, say a high altitude mtn top in the arctic or some way out of reach location, and has a very long grow period then it could impact the economics vs synthesizing wouldn't it ?
That's part of the problem. There isn't an unlimited supply.
The other part of the problem is that studies have repeatedly born out that RCE grown in the lab vs. the wild just doesn't measure up. And as far as synthesizing some of the speculated actives well, the truth is that they're STILL identifying ecdysterones in RCE. Some as recently as 2009.
It's a safe bet nature didn't screw up with these actives, their proportion in relation to each other and their complimentary effects with the other parts of the plant (tannins, resins etc).
Even if you start isolating actives and concentrating them you take a step toward a drug. If you're lucky, you get better "positive" effects.
Almost always though, the side effect profile goes up too...
The other part of the problem is that studies have repeatedly born out that RCE grown in the lab vs. the wild just doesn't measure up. And as far as synthesizing some of the speculated actives well, the truth is that they're STILL identifying ecdysterones in RCE. Some as recently as 2009.
It's a safe bet nature didn't screw up with these actives, their proportion in relation to each other and their complimentary effects with the other parts of the plant (tannins, resins etc).
Even if you start isolating actives and concentrating them you take a step toward a drug. If you're lucky, you get better "positive" effects.
Almost always though, the side effect profile goes up too...
We're getting closer...
Latest update from my contact, and a promising one:
"So far, somewhat good news. I tried the melting point and the thermometer we have only goes up to 400 degrees Celsius. I hit around 380 degrees Celsius and the crystallized compound showed no signs of melting, although it did show signs that it was beginning to decompose (which does not have anything to do or alter melting point, it may just be impurities, or the fact that I couldn’t get pure enough crystals). This is good, however, because it shows that there IS an organic compound in Anabolica with a melting point greater than 380 degrees Celsius. This eliminates all the sugar and fructose and other inert ingredients they added to the pill since they have melting points between 100-220 Celsius. Also, had the professor show me what he saw on the GCMS, and yes, indeed there is a small peak that shows a steroid ring (the characteristic 5 carbon membered ring). However, it could not accurately depict or tell the side groups off of the ring. This was all done with 1 pill, so I have 4 more to attempt to try and figure out what exactly is in it, if I can narrow it down and concentrate it enough".
One clarification: Although he's saying steroids have a characteristic 5 carbon ring, I believe he meant Laxogenin (active in Anabolica). I'm no chemist, but looking at Testosterone it has 4 carbon rings. Laxogenin/most Ecdy's have 5 carbon rings. I've requested clarification..
So it appears this isn't going to turn out like Al Capone's vaults. There IS something in there!
Stay tuned!
Latest update from my contact, and a promising one:
"So far, somewhat good news. I tried the melting point and the thermometer we have only goes up to 400 degrees Celsius. I hit around 380 degrees Celsius and the crystallized compound showed no signs of melting, although it did show signs that it was beginning to decompose (which does not have anything to do or alter melting point, it may just be impurities, or the fact that I couldn’t get pure enough crystals). This is good, however, because it shows that there IS an organic compound in Anabolica with a melting point greater than 380 degrees Celsius. This eliminates all the sugar and fructose and other inert ingredients they added to the pill since they have melting points between 100-220 Celsius. Also, had the professor show me what he saw on the GCMS, and yes, indeed there is a small peak that shows a steroid ring (the characteristic 5 carbon membered ring). However, it could not accurately depict or tell the side groups off of the ring. This was all done with 1 pill, so I have 4 more to attempt to try and figure out what exactly is in it, if I can narrow it down and concentrate it enough".
One clarification: Although he's saying steroids have a characteristic 5 carbon ring, I believe he meant Laxogenin (active in Anabolica). I'm no chemist, but looking at Testosterone it has 4 carbon rings. Laxogenin/most Ecdy's have 5 carbon rings. I've requested clarification..
So it appears this isn't going to turn out like Al Capone's vaults. There IS something in there!
Stay tuned!
Besides, I'm absolutely convinced these have been eclipsed by KA generation 5. If you haven't tried this yet, please do!Finally heard back. We got a lot closer, but still somewhat inconclusive. Here it is word for word from the man:
"So I hope this comes off with no hard feelings my friend, I got overloaded at school and research and taking the MCAT and summer courses. I did have enough time to run the rest of the samples you sent me, just not enough time to convey all processes. Again, really sorry if you think I blew you off but school and studying was a 14hr day for me last semester and didn't have time to run any of my own experiments. The GCMS was also down for about a month for cleaning as some people who don't know how to use it clogged the eluting column. And I also learned more about IR-spec and GCMS for research and quantification procedures, etc so that I could better understand what I was looking at.
So down to business: As you know, Anabolica showed the steroid 4 carbon ring in GCMS and could very well be as it was advertised. Zebutol did not show up anything I could distinguish, whether it could be suma sterol or not, but it did not show any steroid rings as in laxogenin. This could be that the body has specific enzymes that convert suma sterol into an anabolic compound, but I could not find this info online and would have to order the enzymes and run the reaction to be 100%. The Ecdy showed basically the same results as Anabolica, mass-wise, except it was a little higher in mass due to what I believe to be the acetate group.
My conclusions: Anabolica IS a steroidal sapinogen, although whether or not it is the desired laxinogen is a mystery since I did not have a lab standard for it available or it referenced within the GCMS library. I can make no valid or certain conclusions on Zebuterol, sorry. Ecdy has a molecular mass equal to that of laxogenin with the weight of an acetate molecule (about 56 g/mol) and could be the desired laxinogen.
Once again, I hope this message reaches you in good spirits and again sorry for lack of communication. I did use all tablets trying to get better concentrations and better viewable data, which I did achieve for Anabolica, somewhat for ecdy, and no improvement in zebutol".
MY TAKE: This squares up with my results (or lack thereof in ZOE's product's case). I saw a fantastic effect from "Anabolica". Zilch from either ZOE's Ecdysterone and Zebutol.
Consistent with their products at the time: Some batches worked like gangbusters, others didn't work at all. This batch appears to have been the blanks...
"So I hope this comes off with no hard feelings my friend, I got overloaded at school and research and taking the MCAT and summer courses. I did have enough time to run the rest of the samples you sent me, just not enough time to convey all processes. Again, really sorry if you think I blew you off but school and studying was a 14hr day for me last semester and didn't have time to run any of my own experiments. The GCMS was also down for about a month for cleaning as some people who don't know how to use it clogged the eluting column. And I also learned more about IR-spec and GCMS for research and quantification procedures, etc so that I could better understand what I was looking at.
So down to business: As you know, Anabolica showed the steroid 4 carbon ring in GCMS and could very well be as it was advertised. Zebutol did not show up anything I could distinguish, whether it could be suma sterol or not, but it did not show any steroid rings as in laxogenin. This could be that the body has specific enzymes that convert suma sterol into an anabolic compound, but I could not find this info online and would have to order the enzymes and run the reaction to be 100%. The Ecdy showed basically the same results as Anabolica, mass-wise, except it was a little higher in mass due to what I believe to be the acetate group.
My conclusions: Anabolica IS a steroidal sapinogen, although whether or not it is the desired laxinogen is a mystery since I did not have a lab standard for it available or it referenced within the GCMS library. I can make no valid or certain conclusions on Zebuterol, sorry. Ecdy has a molecular mass equal to that of laxogenin with the weight of an acetate molecule (about 56 g/mol) and could be the desired laxinogen.
Once again, I hope this message reaches you in good spirits and again sorry for lack of communication. I did use all tablets trying to get better concentrations and better viewable data, which I did achieve for Anabolica, somewhat for ecdy, and no improvement in zebutol".
MY TAKE: This squares up with my results (or lack thereof in ZOE's product's case). I saw a fantastic effect from "Anabolica". Zilch from either ZOE's Ecdysterone and Zebutol.
Consistent with their products at the time: Some batches worked like gangbusters, others didn't work at all. This batch appears to have been the blanks...
That's about what I expected to see, Rob.
Once you described the Zeb's appearance to me, I knew it was a later years batch from after we'd dropped it. I didn't say anything to you in regards to them being worthless IMO, so as to not bias you against it going in w/ your personal trial. But, the lab results and your personal results have validated that those post MASS era Zeb tabs were a far, far cry from the heyday.
I know you really liked the Anabolica, which we passed on after seeing some estrogenic sides, but no doubt it was legit.
That was Mark's last hurrah, in retrospect.
Once you described the Zeb's appearance to me, I knew it was a later years batch from after we'd dropped it. I didn't say anything to you in regards to them being worthless IMO, so as to not bias you against it going in w/ your personal trial. But, the lab results and your personal results have validated that those post MASS era Zeb tabs were a far, far cry from the heyday.
I know you really liked the Anabolica, which we passed on after seeing some estrogenic sides, but no doubt it was legit.
That was Mark's last hurrah, in retrospect.
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dracotdrgn
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