Ori's thought on post workout nutrition

bigpelo · Post by **bigpelo** » Thu Mar 08, 2012 4:44 pm

Very interesting position on post workout nutrition timing and macros:

https://defensenutrition.com/blog/2012/0 ... nutrition/

mikej26 · Post by **mikej26** » Thu Mar 08, 2012 6:16 pm

Very interesting topic. I've heard Ori talk about this before, not sure where I read it though. I agree with him about insulin sensitivity being far more important than the actual amount of insulin present. It boils down to efficiency of switching back and forth from different energy substrates. Higher insulin sensitivity means less of a lag period to switch from utilizing glycogen to utilization of fatty acids, and a more efficient switch back to glycogen replenishment when carbs are reintroduced.

I could be wrong on this, but the way I see it, and what I've been trying to execute myself is to never fully top off my glycogen stores. You need to keep the tank say, 1/2 to 3/4 full to have enough glycogen readily available for training and to maintain some fullness and stay anabolic. Having glycogen levels fully topped off is where your lean tissues start to reject glucose via reduced insulin sensitivity and you go into fat storage mode. When this occurs you have a more significant lag period involved in switching energy substrate usage because of steadily elevated circulating insulin. I always get the feeling that my muscles lose their ability to uptake nutrients when I'm fully loaded with glycogen. Its a similar feeling to what I get when I'm very depleted. Less energy, crappy mood etc. Riding the fine line in between seems to feel the best and deliver the best results for me.

So in practice, for shear hypertrophy while staying lean, I do what Ori says and hold off on carb intake for some time after training. Periodically have some high carb days to top off taking advantage of the increased insulin sensitivity to super compensate glycogen without doing in too regularly causing a decrease in insulin sensitivity. If trying to lean out I maintain steadily trying to stay 3/4 full via meals an hour or more after training as Ori states allowing my body to easily tap into fat stores because of low circulating insulin levels. Works very well for me.

I'd like to hear what Rob has to say about this because I'm no expert, I've just come to this conclusion via trial and error.

mikej26 · Post by **mikej26** » Thu Mar 08, 2012 8:23 pm

Also, heard Rob on SHR today discussing his decreasing interest for carbohydrates in and around the workout. Seems as though he is evolving his thoughts to more inline with the likes of Ori, Dr. Connelly etc..

Dragon · Post by **Dragon** » Thu Mar 08, 2012 10:31 pm

Yes. I listened to the show and I heard this too. I think what Rob was zeroing in on, on the show, and what Ori might suggestive comments to, was the fact that this will depend on a person's dosha.

I'm interested to hear BigP's experience. Do you think you have lost muscle doing this?

bigpelo · Post by **bigpelo** » Thu Mar 08, 2012 11:50 pm

Being carb ultra sensitive (diabete family history) I do best with fewer carb than most. I am getting leaner since I cut carbs in my post workout shake. I began taking protein 60 minutes after workout instead of right after tonight also. Lets see how it goes!

biscuits · Post by **biscuits** » Fri Mar 09, 2012 6:31 pm

So does this mean intra (protein only) workout drink not necessary?

Or should we be doing an intra and then wait 60 minutes for post workout

bigpelo · Post by **bigpelo** » Fri Mar 09, 2012 6:45 pm

Ori suggest to train in a fasted state because according to him there are only two things that make your body thrive: hard physical workship and hunger. So by doing both at the same time you increase the body adaptation to stress response then wait 30-60 after the workout and take only cold process undenated whey protein and after another 30-60 minutes it's time for whey again plus a serving low glycimic fruit from what I understand. That's what I did yesterday, I will try again tomorrow (I don't train today). Also, I insert a re-feed day there and then to lower the stress of hunger, up leptin level and replenish glycogen.

biscuits · Post by **biscuits** » Fri Mar 09, 2012 6:53 pm

Very interesting, thanks for the tip.
This thread could be saving people alot of money on carb powders

And I'm assuming he states fasted state for people cutting/recomping right?
Surely people bulking should have a small meal about 1 hour before lifting? (Maybe a banana)

Edit: I would not have guessed English is not your first language. Nice

matter2003 · Post by **matter2003** » Fri Mar 09, 2012 10:35 pm

biscuits wrote:So does this mean intra (protein only) workout drink not necessary?

Or should we be doing an intra and then wait 60 minutes for post workout

Martin Berkhan(Leangains) recommends training in a fasted state with 10g of BCAA to increase protein synthesis...

mikej26 · Post by **mikej26** » Fri Mar 09, 2012 11:05 pm

10 grams of bcaa pre is what I've been doing. More so for the fact that as cortisol levels rise during training they can be broken down rather than going catabolic.

Dragon · Post by **Dragon** » Fri Mar 09, 2012 11:31 pm

mikej26 wrote:10 grams of bcaa pre is what I've been doing. More so for the fact that as cortisol levels rise during training they can be broken down rather than going catabolic.

I really admire Ori.
I wonder. Do you feel faster recovery with that. I've been popping bcaa caps like chicklets throughout the day. I wonder if its better to take it post workout only. I grow weary of drinking that disgusting casein and leucine mix during my workout.

nigh70wl · Post by **nigh70wl** » Sat Mar 10, 2012 10:24 am

whoah Dragon. you drink casein during a workout? why not whey?

there was some discussion of this topic on /r/weightroom as someone else had posted the link; the general consensus was that most of the very experienced weightlifters there would drink a BCAA/high-glycemic carb drink before/during lifting, and that they'd wait an hour or two before drinking a shake or eating. after seeing that article and discussion, I started drinking some of the Formula before lifting and the rest before finishing up.

mikej26 · Post by **mikej26** » Sat Mar 10, 2012 1:38 pm

Dragon wrote:
mikej26 wrote:10 grams of bcaa pre is what I've been doing. More so for the fact that as cortisol levels rise during training they can be broken down rather than going catabolic.
I really admire Ori.
I wonder. Do you feel faster recovery with that. I've been popping bcaa caps like chicklets throughout the day. I wonder if its better to take it post workout only. I grow weary of drinking that disgusting casein and leucine mix during my workout.

I find the 10 grams of bcaa's pre workout to help. I think mainly because when training fasted it gives me something that can be converted to glucose if the need arises during training. I've found that my endurance is better with the 10 grams as opposed to without it.
On some heavier training days I have a 1-2 bananas an hour before training and the bcaa's in the parking lot before walking into the gym. The hope is that the fructose in the banana will Target hepatic glycogen stores and let those feed the brain while training to avoid a mid training bonk. The bcaa's hopefully come in as a back up VIA gluconeogenisis to keep the intensity level up.

I too am curious about the mixture of casein and leucine you're using. I've used casein and leucine before. But I used to take the casein by itself and then take 3-5 grams of leucine every 2-3 hours to trigger protein synthesis multiple times throughout the span of caseins breakdown, since casein provides a steady stream of EAA's, but lacks the threshold amount of leucine to start the process.

The trick with BCAA's (particularly leucine) from the sources I've found is that the threshold amount of 3 grams needed to trigger protein synthesis can only happen after the machinery involved has had a chance to reset which is said to take 2-3 hours. So, spreading the doses in such a fashion is more effective than taking the BCAA's at random throughout the day.

Dragon · Post by **Dragon** » Sat Mar 10, 2012 10:11 pm

Point taken about the bcaa's, I'll do it that way then.
I use the pepto pro crap from trueprotein and it taste like sh!t. I got the recipe from someone here actually. I think it works well but my somatype begs for carbs during the workout. My mouth was watering and I wanted to go get a box of donuts, and I almost did!!

I felt considerably weaker today having only ate one meal in the morning and then going into the gym at 4pm fasted, then having the formula pre then post, not during. I guess it takes some getting used to. I'm now straining to hit 3000 kals before I go to sleep. This is too hard.

I know digestion is basically shut off during strenous exercise but idk. Eating in the gym has made a world of difference FOR ME. I will probably stop eating those powders and just use organic juices and bananas.

My run has been a real lesson for me in terms of what I can and can't eat according to my bodytype. I tried a gallon of milk a day one week and i was literally doubled over in pain at work ( and this was with LACTAID) so I've learned to use coconut milk with whey instead. I could give many other examples but I now understand BigP's advice to focus on nutrition and the loading patterns for my first run, THEN add the supps once I know what I'm doing. ( I shoulda listened)
There is so much advice to sort through so I've decided to make myself into a kinda lab rat. For me, I'll stick to eating during my training.